BiOtterDad (v2)

Category: marriage

  • Another Conversation

    I just had another hour conversation with her.

    She agreed or accepted that she’s asexual. She just doesn’t need sex. I said I understand and accept her. I have to figure out how to live with it.

    I don’t know what this means. I expect less sex now. I said it’d be fine to get some make out time and then no sex later. She said that’s helpful. Maybe we figure out other non-penetrative sex options.

    It’s not the life I expected, but the life I have.

    Short update, but I didn’t want to batch it up for a month again.

  • Mediation on Custody

    We both expected mediation to fail. I wanted 50/50 – one week with me, one week with her (7-7). She wanted 80/20, where I get every Friday night and she has the rest.

    The mediator separated us into different Zoom rooms after 20 minutes and bounced back and forth. In the end, we have a verbal agreement for 50/50 but a 3-4 schedule. I’ll have them Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday nights. She has them Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday nights. Saturday nights we swap every week. So one week I’d have them 3 nights, the next 4.

    I “won.”

    So, I “won.” I got my 50/50, and only gave up on the schedule and a ramp up schedule she wanted. As the mediator (a lawyer) suggested, I get my 50/50 and avoid court and dragging this out. It’s only a few weeks difference and a few nights over those. So not much worth losing over.

    We need to meet with the mediator to establish a few other final details. But I’m truly impressed she was able to change my spouse’s mind. If I had that skill, maybe we’d still be together. I think she started telling her the risk of going to court asking for 80/20, and that there really isn’t a justifiable reason to ask for that.

    We’re supposed to decide the plan on the best interests of the child. Not doing 7-7 so she doesn’t miss the kids for a week at a time is for her, but it’s also for the kids. Maybe it’s the best plan? We can reevaluate after we try it out for awhile.

    But this is the final, permanent, plan. No temporary and then renegotiate the final. We’re done. This is a huge relief (and win?) for me. We stop dragging out the process and can complete the divorce in August, perhaps. I was worried this could drag on through the entire year.

    Aside from some details, it’s good to have some resolutions. The world knows. Custody framework in place with most of my goals. I can stop worrying about pending problems and focus on just completing other tasks.

  • We Told The World

    We had the conversation with the kids to tell them about the divorce. They were shocked. Youngest was also sad. Oldest was sad the next day but didn’t say anything. Both seem fine generally. I think having the routine schedule and not much actually changed was helpful.

    I took off the ring and she did too.

    I texted my family, they said sorry it happened.

    She talked to her mom. I don’t know what she said. I asked my spouse what she said but she said she didn’t want to tell me. I’m curious, but also don’t care anymore. Not my family. They have been very helpful, but at a cost of being intrusive. They still will, less and less as the boys get older though.

    In all, it was a lot easier to have that conversation with the boys, and they took it way better than I expected, so far. But the long term, the next year is what really matters. So the final judgement will be made later. But I’m more than pleased at the current status.

  • I Bought a House

    I bought a house. Going to be tight on the budget, especially initially needing to furnish the house, especially the kitchen, and kid needs. But I can make it and should be okay in a year.

    Feels weird to start a 30-year mortgage at age 48. I don’t plan to work until I’m 78, so what do they expect to happen after I retire at age 70 at the latest? I shouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth.

    I replaced the carpet on the main floor and stairs and second floor with some nice hardwood flooring.

    I wanted a whole home humidifier to help protect the new wood flooring. The HVAC tech did an inspection of the furnace and discovered the heat exchanger was cracked. The furnace was dead. He red tagged it and turned it off. Worse, the A/C exchange is right above the furnace, and since it was overheating, it likely caused a crack in those pipes explaining why the A/C was performing below performance specifications. The whole system needed to be replaced.

    I bit the bullet and got 2 quotes. Bought a slightly upgraded system with a heat exchanger, just to get some rebates, though I intend to use the gas furnace for heat still, since gas is cheaper (for now at least).

    I looked back at the Seller’s Property Disclosure. They failed to note the furnace problem. I contacted a company they said they had used, and the gave me all the documentation saying they should fix the furnace. They failed to disclose that. They also knew the water heater was out of code. They failed to disclose that.

    I’ve hired an attorney to get the new HVAC and water heater code fix covered by them (and attorney fees). More money problems to deal with that I don’t need right now. But the initial call from them indicated this should be a clear cut case.

    AI says this is a slam dunk case. I have the paper trail. Any attorney they contact should just tell them to pay and be done. They committed fraud by omission. My attorney should send a letter asking for the money, and we’re done. Hopefully they pay then. Otherwise it could be a long fight, and perhaps even a fight to get the money even if I win in court.

  • The Beginning of the End

    In therapy we agreed to start the separation processing leading to divorce. We were both fairly amicable on it. We each still care for each other, want each other to do well, but are just on different paths in life and are structurally incompatible.

    The biggest and only contention so far is she wants full custody and will give me “unrestricted visitation.” But 50/50 is the default in this state and she can’t prove I’m incapable, dangerous or delinquent in being a father. She still wants to fight for it. She brought up my depression, but that’s not a valid reason to disqualify me as a father. But it’s the legal narrative she will use. But it’s not about what she wants or what I want. It’s what is best for the kids. Having an involved mother and father is what is best for them.

    A long time coming, perhaps 15 years or so. But it’s done. Unlike the previous 2 times, I have no feeling of hesitation or fear of the unknown future. I’ve done some planning, prepared, and while there is the unknown future, I know I’ll survive and be okay. There’s no reason to clutch to the devil I know this time. (I’m not calling her a devil, honest.)

  • Therapy – It Does A Body Good

    I had my first virtual therapy session on January 9th. He was great, asked a lot of questions that many of you have asked me, but then gave me advice on things to do and to work on with my spouse. He was accepting about my sexuality and being on Chaturbate (but he didn’t know what it is!?).

    First, he commented that her libido isn’t normal. Having a low libido for six months or a year is fine, but not years. It doesn’t have to be expressed sexually either. One can be affectionate and have their libido fulfilled. So her absence of anything was concerning to him. He said I should ask her to go to a doctor to get checked out. That I’m concerned about her health and want her to be happy. If she physically checks out fine, then maybe is depression or something else. But to start the process and try to get better. In addition, I really just need affection. I want to make love, not have sex, and “forcing” her into it doesn’t make me feel good.

    Secondly, he said I should get PReP and Doxy Pep to be prepared. I’m already taking risks being online and starting to meet guys, even though platonic, but it’s a small leap to where I wish I had the medicine.

    In all, I think it was a valuable hour, and hopefully established the relationship. We had to end early because the hour was up, but we were continuously conversing which is a wildly radical difference from my previous experience. I’m probably much more different and more comfortable talking about my life because of my experience talking to everyone on CB about it, but regardless, it helped more and made the time valuable.

    It’s not typical therapy where I go once a week, or some set schedule. It’s virtual and on-demand though my work where I get 6 free sessions. So I plan to spread them out a little bit and in the meanwhile, work on the things he suggested.

    Except I’ve doubled down on my commitment to not meet any guys sexually. So I’ll skip the medicine for now since it does have a shelf life, and the hassle isn’t worth it.

    I’m committing to work on our marriage and improve it and then come out to her when I feel we’re in a good place and that coming out would likely have the best chance to succeed.

    Some great questions he asked:

    • If you had an open marriage, would you seek to be with women as well?
      • I said I just want her. I wouldn’t seek any other women exclusively. I’d be involved with a couple or threesome that involved a woman, but otherwise wouldn’t seek a relationship with just a woman.
    • If you come out and she says no to an open marriage, what will you do?
      • I don’t know. I’m going to punt on this and worry about it if it happens.

    So I waited to try and schedule time to talk to her. It was difficult to arrange this for 2 weeks. In the meanwhile, on Saturday, January 20th, I had a tense conversation with my spouse. Earlier that day she says I was grumpy and “told her” to make a grocery list “I need you to make a grocery list, please”. I don’t remember it that way, I think I said “Would you make a grocery list, please”? Regardless, she says she was pissed. But she never does anything about it. Just lets it bottle up inside her. I then went to my older son and ended up in a fight over him going to the grocery store with me. He has a school assignment to make some food. I think he should be the one to go to the store and shop for them since it’s his work. It’s also a way to get him off the computer, for which my spouse complains they spend too much time on. My son escalated to my spouse. I came and tried to “warn” her that he was coming down and the situation. She thinks I was dragging her into it, but it was him going to approach her regardless. He eventually says “fine, but I won’t go with dad.” She says okay and goes. I’ve done the grocery shopping 99% of the time for the last 3 years because it gets me out of the house (I WFH so I don’t leave much). Not that I have to do so, but I feel like she invalidated me by placating him.

    A bunch of other old things were brought up and she stepped away to cool off. Fine, smart move really. I approached her about 10 minutes later and we started chatting again and I was trying to focus on how do we solve the problems? When she thinks I’m grumpy, call me out on it then, and let’s deal with it then (if we can). I asked if she thought we could get back to where we were when we got married — I thought we were great. She says she regrets not speaking up then about things. This makes me feel like I don’t know who I married. That she just put up an illusion for me, for whatever reason. I can’t see a possible reason this would be beneficial.

    Regardless, we chatted a few more minutes and then she said she wanted to go watch TV with our younger son because she values that. I called her out that choosing TV over talking about us and trying to resolve our problems — what message does that send? After a minute more of discussing this, we kept talking, so to her credit, she didn’t choose it. Finally, I asked her if she wanted to keep trying to rebuild our relationship? She says it feels like “1 step forward, 2 steps backwards.” I feel the same. For all the progress we made, it feels like we aren’t getting anywhere. She said it was all she could handle for tonight so we went our separate ways.

    Later, we chatted briefly a bit more. She asked about something I did that night if that would be subverting. I said no and explained why. She asked why I don’t intervene when she’s fighting with the boys. I said because I thought she’d yell at me. (I’ve also thought that she doesn’t need me and I don’t want to give the impression she does or gang up against the kids, but I didn’t think of that until later.) She then said we should book a time to chat. So I pitched mid-day Monday. Baby steps. But then we didn’t kiss goodnight. Kinda expected that, but still makes it feel real. It really hit me.

    Sunday I felt it was all over. We were going to get a divorce. I started looking at things and thinking “Do I want that? Is that ‘mine’?” I tried to think about where to live. None of these thoughts were fun. I did have a sense of relief in that now I knew how it was all going to end. I could start to see my future instead of being in a state of quagmire.

    Monday we finally had a good talk. We hashed a lot out, came to some agreements, are going to keep trying, and give a little more effort and basically try harder. I brought up the libido issues my therapist pointed out and she said she has been ignoring the doctor but will go get checked out. We had a make out session on the couch later that night (I licked a boob for about 5 minutes). While it was sexual, it was not sex, so it’s the affection and desire I need more of. I still had to initiate, but you can’t change everything in one day so I’ll take the progress and enjoy what I got. We ended up have good sex that night. Talking lots during it and there wasn’t “a clock” to try and hurry up. She even orgasmed. I always want her to, but she doesn’t care if she does or not. I asked afterwards why she said yes to sex on a Monday?! She said she was trying to be more flexible. I’ll take it.

    So things were generally better and trying to be more communicative and not assume anything about the other person for a week. Then came my work trip. Then when I got home, she and our younger son were sick, and now I’m sick. But it feels like we’ve fallen back to our old habits of less communication. Maybe it’s just sick and work travel stress, so I’m willing to give it a pass. Also, skipping a testosterone injection causing my testosterone levels to drop combined with poor sleep due to travel made me tired again, and feel like a zombie.

    But this past weekend she did say “I feel like I’m the only one that finds broken things around here.” That hurts. I’ll concede she finds more, but not all. That invalidates the things I do. And I do want to fix things that maybe aren’t broken, but need fixing. The wood floors need to be redone. We need new carpet. I got 3 quotes to redo the wood floor a year ago. It ended waiting for her to decide which she wanted to use as I didn’t have a preference. I’m still waiting.

    So I don’t have anything major to conclude with. I’ve been on an emotional roller coaster going from it’s all over to good sex to better to back to old habits. But at least we tried for a short bit, and perhaps after the illness passes from the family, some better sleep and testosterone levels back up, it’ll go back to getting better. During the week after our big chat, I thought we were on the right track again and could see that I could conceivably come out to her in six month or so. Now, I’m not so sure again.

    So this is the big update I’ve been needing to publish. I should do more frequent postings so it’s not as big a post with major changes and issues.

  • Temptation

    And A Brief Recent History of My Marriage

    It’s been a rough last 3 weeks.

    Last summer, my wife and I came to an agreement of sex once a week on average; most probably Friday or Saturday, but nothing is guaranteed. I can ask anytime, but weeknights are probably a no, but there’s always a chance — though in reality, it’s never happened since our agreement. During her period, it’s time off and doesn’t count.

    Regardless, three weeks ago she gave a no on Friday and Saturday. I asked for a “rain check,” which she granted, but I’ve yet to try and cash in. Skipping one week isn’t the end of things. Her typical reason is “She’s tired” (more on this later). The next weekend turned out to be her period. I’m usually aware of signs when it’s starting, but it was literally just starting. I asked Friday, and got that no response. Fair enough. Then this past weekend, I got a no again, both nights with the same “too tired.” I’m not sure what good a rain check is if the foundation isn’t there.

    Sure, people have phases they get tired. Maybe they sleep less, stay up later, random events, or otherwise (un?)explainable reasons. My complaint is she doesn’t do anything to try and solve her tiredness. She doesn’t sleep in but maybe an hour on weekends, but that’s mitigated by staying up a little later usually the night before. She doesn’t take naps. She doesn’t try and go to bed earlier. Worse yet, she occasionally will stay up late with a kid or watching some shows. She’ll also drink a few nights a week, not always drunk, but at least intoxicated. If you don’t know, alcohol affects your sleep. The best phase I’ve ever heard about alcohol is “You’re stealing happiness from the future.” In short, there’s no effort to prioritize me in her life. Getting 15 minutes less sleep for a better marriage isn’t valuable for her. More sleep at the time when other changes could be made to get that 15 minutes elsewhere. I feel unvalued in our marriage. Lower than sleep, shows, alcohol or basic efforts to try and make sleep improvements. I feel rejected, though that may be unfair because she might be asexual. So it’s not really a rejection of me as much as just anyone and everyone.

    It hurts.

    And without sex, I’ve become tempted to stray again. Which is really what this post is about. I’ve been on Sniffies and Grindr chatting with local guys. There’s lots to choose from. I haven’t met anyone, and I honestly am fearful to do so. Both for consequences to my marriage, but STD and STI and more. I’ve done my research. Getting MPox vaccinated seems important. Maybe getting PrEP.

    In a previous post, I said:

    So, chatting with guys online is my limit. I have to accept that limit and be fine with that, or something has to change. I can change my line, which feels wrong. I can come out, which feels disastrous. Or be stuck in limbo until I’m willing to accept divorce as a consequence.

    So here I am, tempted and starting to make connections. Technically I’m still at the line as all I’ve done it chat. But the implication of being on Sniffies or Grindr is to meet someone, eventually. Have I made the decision to do so? No. But it feels all be inevitable.

    I’ve told myself multiple times in the past 3 days “I’ve given up on our marriage.” I’m going through the motions to keep the peace. But there’s nothing there for me. What happens if she asks for sex? Do I turn it down? If I haven’t been with anyone else, maybe not? I’m not sure she will ask though. She hasn’t in forever. It would be a good experiment to see how long it will take her to ask. If I have been with someone else, just turn it down? What if she then asks about why I’m turning her down? “Too tired” would be a fun :burn: answer, but would a conversation be better? Those types of conversations are better had during daytime and not late night in bed.

    Some more comments and statistics about infidelity in marriage with a specific bisexual male take:

    Only 22% of women say that their husband cheating with a man would be acceptable to them, and 62% of women would rather their husband cheat on them with a woman than a guy.

    … women likely to stay with their male partner, who has sex with another man (only 26 percent of women would stay in relationship).

    During the ‘80s, and the Oprah-driven panic of the “down-low” phenomena, where straight-acting men were having often unprotected homosexual sex, and possibly exposing their unsuspecting wives and girlfriends to STD and HIV, there were compelling studies of the stigma of bisexuality. Researcher Greg Herek found that on a spectrum of trust and stigma, bisexuals rank below intravenous drug-users. In fact, lawyers are often regarded as more trustworthy than bisexuals (ouch).
    …
    Male bisexuals are seen as more disturbed, untrustworthy and dangerous than are female bisexuals.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/women-who-stray/201101/does-bisexual-infidelity-count
    https://hackspirit.com/infidelity-statistics/

    There’s no good option. I do have other options, but this feels like the only one with the strongest possibility of achieving success in all parts.

    In trying to rationalize and make it acceptable, I’ve thought of all kinds of things. I’ve mentioned my vows. Thinking back, we didn’t say “… forsaking all others …”, but that feels like a technicality. Maybe I’m remembering it wrong. Any and all such rationalizations don’t change reality.

    Somewhat unrelated: Combined with work going nuts and being exhausting (mentally), and I haven’t been sleeping well again, it’s been affecting me physically. I’ve stopped exercising (I am too tired — the irony!). I’ve sought medical help, and hopefully I find out soon a solution to my sleep problem, which maybe will help improve my mental state. I sometimes worry my mental state is giving an inaccurate picture of the state of my marriage.

    But none of this answers the real question. Nothing will but time.

  • Accused of Cheating

    In couples therapy today my spouse accused me of cheating.

    I feel like he’s going around my back or plans to.

    I said

    I have never cheated, and I do not plan to cheat.

    Then it hit me. She thinks I was cheating on her. She didn’t trust me. And despite any evidence that I was cheating, which doesn’t exist because I wasn’t, she still thought I was.

    Her justification was from when I asked for ENM, and if someone is willing to think about that then that’s what they planned to do. The therapist pointed out her logical gap, that people think lots of things, but that doesn’t mean it’s what they do or plan. She relented.

    But I was devastated. I was hurt. After all the temptation, and choice to not cheat because I didn’t want to hurt her, and it’s not who I want to be, I was guilty anyways. Her logical misstep makes sense, but at the same time, that can’t be the only thing that is needed before you confront someone.

    One of my core values, a foundation of who I am, is that I am authentic. Asking for ENM is not what cheaters do. Cheaters are going to cheat. I was trying to be honest (ethical) and transparent and asking for permission.

    The therapist urged her to apologize.

    I’m sorry I hurt you, but you hurt me when you asked for ENM.

    That’s not an apology. Tit-for-tat isn’t okay, and doesn’t excuse your accusation now.

    I have a pit in my stomach. I have a hole in my soul and my heart.

    I’m sorry I hurt you. I can understand how you’re feeling because I felt that way when you asked for ENM. I cried in the car and had conversations with myself in the car for weeks. I should have taken the years of faithful marriage and dating years in to account.

    I’m sorry I hurt you.

    Trust is foundational in a marriage. It shows she doesn’t know me at all. (And me asking her for ENM showed I don’t know her.)

    I genuinely don’t know if I can get over this.

  • That’s All – Genesis

    Sometimes I come across some lyrics that just sum things up.

    I could leave but I won’t go
    Though my heart might tell me so
    I can’t feel a thing from my head down to my toes
    So why does it always seem to be
    Me looking at you, you looking at me
    S’always the same, it’s just a shame, that’s all

    …

    Truth is I love you
    More than I wanted to
    There’s no point in trying to pretend
    There’s been no-one who
    Makes me feel like you do
    Say we’ll be together til the end

    “That’s All” dwells in the can’t live with you, can’t live without you relationship limbo that many other songs have inhabited.
    …
    But why does it always seem to be / Me lookin’ at you, you lookin’ at me, the narrator complains, evoking how they are unable to communicate their way through their conflicts. Indeed, the lack of a middle ground seems to be dooming their chances: Taking it all instead of taking one bite. Still, in the bridge, he admits that his feelings for her are too strong to simply write off this affair: Truth is I love you / More than I wanted to do.

    The Story and Meaning Behind “That’s All,” the First of Many 1980s Top-10 U.S. Hits by Genesis

  • She Said No

    I didn’t want to write this. I know I’ve left you all hanging for weeks for which I apologize. But writing this makes it more real and I didn’t want to do that.

    She said did doesn’t believe that non-monogamy can be ethical. It’s a contradiction. Therefore, it would be a sham marriage and she wouldn’t be happy to tell or talk about it with anyone, regardless that she never actually world but that it’s not something she wants to do because she couldn’t talk about it.

    We had good sex that night. But the next day I still felt terrible. In 2023, when we had good sex (3 times), I felt great for days afterwards. I didn’t this time. I don’t know what that means.

    So we agreed to couples therapy two weeks later. We went (a week ago) and it felt like we just rehashed all the same arguments. For the first session, maybe it’s just a setup and we can’t expect progress. The therapist did give us homework to do:

    • What attracts me to her?
    • What do I need from her?
    • What do I need from her in order to get to a more “natural” emotional state?
    • What needs need to be met?
    • What would a date night look like?

    And my spouse would answer the same things of me.

    And some issues kept happening since therapy and I got tired of trying so I stopped. I do the basics to be a good roommate, but I feel like all the effort we’ve made is sometimes two steps forward and one step back. Old issues resurface and occur again which undoes progress.

    I’m on-call this week for work. On Wednesday-Thursday night I woke up after 1.5 hours from going to sleep and was up for 2 hours. I finally felt ready to go back to sleep and then I got a page for work. It was a real problem this time so I was up for 2 more hours. In total, I got 4.5 hours of sleep that night. In the morning I was tired and groggy.

    When I make coffee, I like half and half and sugar. In making coffee Thursday morning I get the sugar out of the pantry, make coffee, and return it. She has asked me to close the pantry door when done using it, so I do. But sometimes she’s doing something in the kitchen and she’ll close the pantry door. I think it’s rude to close it when I have something out. This time I was going to put eh sugar away and she was already at the pantry and closed it with me behind her. I sighed and started putting it away and she said “Sorry, it’s just habit.” I feel that’s not an apology. When I was closing the door the sugar fell and made a loud noise (but didn’t spill) and I looked back and was too tired to care. I’ll get it later. She went and got it and put it away. Today she said she felt like I gave her a look “You put it away bitch.” I feel like we assume a terrible thing about each other when there is often a much more benign solution.

    It sounds silly to write out this incident now.

    But I feel like she doesn’t care about me. She says she does, but then does things like this that show she doesn’t. She didn’t ask how I was feeling. I’ve asked her recently how she was feeling and she didn’t ask me back.

    I approached her today to talk and started off “Are you ready to talk about divorce?” and she said “Yes.” So we spent an hour discussing our joint ownership of things and child custody arrangements. It was pretty civil. In the divorce paperwork there’s a statement we agree to that “the marriage is irrevocably broken and cannot be repaired.” I asked her if she felt that way and she said she’s not sure; I feel the same.

    So we’re not going to do anything just yet. We’ll think about it. We’ll attend our scheduled therapy session in a week. We’ll check back in 2 weeks. We’re going to give each other some space, which is difficult to do living together with kids and needing to coordinate, but we’ll do what we can.

    It’s scary. I don’t know what’s going to happen. We’re still going to be a part of each other’s lives for a decade because of kids, but it’ll be less.

    Maybe we can try a trial separation?

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